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1974 Interview with Rudy Maxa of the Washington Post

Interview Transcript - Part 3



QUIGLEY: “it wasnʼt the best of them: ʻGeneral Crises in Civilization.ʼ You know, which,
this is an attractive title.
Now, uh, somebody called me up and wanted to talk to me, at this. And. I think it
was at this. And he said his name was Larson and he was a scientist from
Brigham Young and he wanted to see and talk to me because of what was going
on up there. I said ʻWhat is going on up there?ʼ ʻOh,ʼ he said, ʻTheyʼre have
mass meetings on thisʼ, and, and he says ʻIt is just an uproar all the time.ʼ And I
didnʼt know.”
“Now, he made an interview with me, and he wanted to play it on the campus radio,
or the local radio, station, and I said ʻAll right.ʼ”

INTERVIEWER: “What was the interview about?”

QUIGLEY: “About, this, this.

INTERVIEWER: “This book?”

QUIGLEY: “Yeah, No, about the Skousens controversy. And I said ʻAll right. Let me know
what happensʼ But he never wrote to me. I never found out. I never made any
effort. So I donʼt know if it was ever broadcast or not.”

INTERVIEWER: “ Hmmm. What was, what, why, what was your input in that. What did you have
to say about the Skousens controversy?”

QUIGLEY: Well, I simply told him Skousens wrote this book. He never, uh, talked to me
about it.”

INTERVIEWER: “Never talked with you.”

QUIGLEY: “He violated my copyright. Itʼs full of lies. There are things that are untrue.
It takes things out of context and mis-interprets them. And I gave him the specific
things where I disagreed. The group that Iʼm writing about was originally, in my
mind, the group established secretly by Lord Milner in 1908, 1909, called The
Round Table Group, which still publishes a quarterly magazine called the ʻThe
Round Tableʼ in London, which is one of the worldʼs best sources of international
relations information since 1910. The first editor of it was Lord Lothian, at that
time Philip Kerr. K-E-R-R. And, uh, nobody knew this, really, for years. I got to
know things. And I investigated that group. You see?


QUIGLEY: “Now, how I found it is very interesting I noticed that prominent people in English
life had ʻFellow of All Souls College.ʼ Uh, Lord Halifax, who was the, uh, Secretary
of State for Foreign Affairs and then they made him the Ambassador to
America. When they take the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs and makes
him Ambassador to Washington, which most people would consider a downward
step, it shows how important they considered Washingtonʼs support would be in
World War II. You see? All right. Heʼs a Fellow of All Souls.
The fellow who summoned Neville, uh, Chamberlain, on the 10th of May 1940, and
said ʻFor Godʼs sake, go.ʼ was, uh, Leo Amery. All right. He was a sidekick, the
chief lieutenant, political lieutenant of Lord Milner. See? And he was a Fellow of
All Souls. And so, I decided I would study All Souls as a purely historical effort. I
got the names of all people who had been Fellows of All Souls from 1899 to
whenever I was doing it, which would be about 1947. And there were one hundred
forty-nine of them. I discovered that most of them were Fellows for only
seven years, which was the, the regular appointment, which is for seven years.
But some of them were for fifty-five years Fellows of All Souls. A man named
Dougal Malcolm, who was the head of the British South Africa Company, which is
what Rhodesia. You see. And he was fifty-five years. I discovered that Lord
Brand, who had been with Milner in South Africa, was for years. And he was the
head of Lazar Brothers bankers, in London. And, I discovered that Leo Amery
was, for years. And so forth. And above all, I discovered a man named Lionel
Curtis, who had no right whatever to be a Fellow of All Souls. You get to be a Fellow
of All Souls either because you are a very prominent person and, as an honorary
thing, you will become a honorary fellow for seven years. Or because you
were an outstanding scholar and you get it by competitive examination when you
graduate. Thatʼs how Lord Halifax got it. His name was, uh, Charles [actually,
Edward] Wood. In 1903, when he graduated from, uh, Oxford, he took a competitive
examination and got it. But heʼs kept it. Now I discovered he kept it because
he went immediately to South Africa and met the Kindergarten, which was the
group of people that were running South Africa for Lord Milner, you see. They
were called ʻKindergartenʼ because they were all young kids.”


QUIGLEY: You see. Now these are the ones who remained forever after ʻFellows of All
Souls.ʼ Or in Lional Curtisʼs case. Heʼs the man who said ʻWeʼve got to change
the name from ʻBritish Empireʼ to ʻCommonwealth of Nations.ʼ And the reason is
they had been students of Alfred Zimmern, who wrote a book in 1909 called ʻThe
Greek Commonwealthʼ describing ancient Greece. You see? And who was the
man who made Arnold Toynbee a great classical scholar, do you see? And
brought him into international affairs. Now, I knew none of this.”


QUIGLEY: “All I knew is, that here were, here was a fellow, Lionel Curtis, who was such a
poor student it took him fifteen years to get his degree. And then he got it [with]
about the lowest pass degree or something that you could ever get.”

INTERVIEWER: “Uhm huh. Here he was.”

QUIGLEY: “ And he.. And nobody knew it; nobody ever heard of him.”

INTERVIEWER: “Right. But he was...”

QUIGLEY: “Furthermore.”

INTERVIEWER: “ very good company.”

QUIGLEY: “Furthermore, he was Lord Halifaxʼs roommate at All Souls for years. And then I
discovered this fellow is behind everything thatʼs going on. Lionel Curtis, do you
see? Now, I donʼt think we should talk too much about this.”

INTERVIEWER: “Well, No, I, you see. .”

QUIGLEY: “All right. All right. But, having discovered that, I met Alfred Zimmern, when he
came here to give a speech. And I said ʻIsnʼt this funny that, that All Souls...ʼ He
said ʻThatʼs the Round Table Group.ʼ I had never heard of them. That shows how
little I knew. And theyʼd been around since 1909 and publishing this magazine
from 1910. And this was 1947. And I said ʻWhat is the Round Table Group?ʼ He
named them, who they were. And he said ʻI was a member of them, for ten years.
From 1913. And they, they added, they brought me in, invited me because I was
in their Workersʼ Educational Alliance.” This is extension programs. Night
courses, summer courses for workers. Workersʼ Educational Alliance. And he
said, uh, ʻThatʼs why they brought me in to it. I was for ten years.ʼ And he said ʻI
resigned in 1923 because they were determined to build up Germany against
France.ʼ He said “I wouldnʼt stand for it. So I resigned.ʼ
Now, when I met Lord Brand later and asked him about this, he [said] he had
never seen the letter of resignation.
Now, so Iʼd better start talking, because you see, this gets into all kinds of


QUIGLEY: “Now, this is. I knew the Round Table group was very influential. I knew that they
were the real founders of the Royal Institutes of International Affairs. And I knew
that, all the stuff that is in print, that they were they real founders of the Institutes
of Pacific Relations. I knew that they were the godfathers of the, uh, Council on
Foreign Relations here.”


QUIGLEY: “I knew that, for example, you know the big ʻStudy of History,ʼ many volumes of,
uh, Arnold Toynbee?


QUIGLEY: “All right. I knew the manuscripts of that were stored in Council on Foreign Relations
during the War so they wouldnʼt be destroyed by German bombing, do you


QUIGLEY: “And so forth, and so forth.
So I began to put these things together and discovered that this group was working
for the following things. They were a secret group. They were working to
federate the English-speaking world, the English-speaking world. They were
closely linked to international bankers. Uh, they were working to establish a
world, what I call a three-power world. And that three-power world was: The Atlantic
Bloc (of England and the Commonwealth and the United States), Germany
(Hitlerʼs Germany), Soviet Russia. The three power world. They said Germany,
we can control because [itʼs] boxed in (and all of this is in my book), itʼs boxed in
between the Atlantic Bloc and the Russians. The Russians will behave because
theyʼre boxed in between the Atlantic Bloc (the American Navy and Singapore,
and so forth) and, uh, the Germans. Do you see?”


QUIGLEY: “And, therefore... Now, this all described in my book, and this was their idea.
Now notice, itʼs a balance of power system.”


QUIGLEY: “Itʼs essentially what Kissinger, but he doesnʼt know what heʼs doing. Heʼs bungling


QUIGLEY: “Because heʼs just a prima donna, you know, uh, emotionally unbalanced, uh,
person. He doesnʼt know what the hell heʼs doing. But it was a good idea. And
what he should have been doing is described by me, and you really should read
this, in ʻCurrent Historyʼ for October 1968. Now, if I had a copy, Iʼd give it to you.
But I donʼt have it. It is how to construct a multi-bloc world, in which the United
States would be secure as the other candidi [sic] and would be independent and
have freedom of action. Do you see?”


QUIGLEY: “But he is blowing it. In one way or another. And the whole thing is going to explode
in his face, Iʼm afraid. And I hope to God it doesnʼt. Because we cannot
afford, you know, another mess like this. These incompetents. Now, uh, what is
said is here, is: these people are for world domination.”

INTERVIEWER: “And that you...”

QUIGLEY: “And the group I am talking about were not.”


QUIGLEY: “They were largely, partly financed, for instance, by the, uh, by Rhodes, the Rhodes
Trust, and the how ...” 


End of  Transcript - Part 3

Continue to Transcript - Part 4

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